14
Sep
11

Zoey Roberts: Continued…

Update 09-12-2011

Last night, after I posted this blog, about an hour or so later, several individuals that are mutual friends between myself and Zoey messaged me to let me know that Zoey wanted back in the group she had left voluntarily in protest of me and another admin “being too bossy.” I had told her not to flood the group with multiple postings and to keep it to one thread—a rule for ALL members of the group. One or two threads a day is not that bad. 25 posts of whining? I don’t want to have to scroll through that to get the other members who may have something THEY have a right to express. And they don’t want that either. This rule was made up and expressed with permission by the original creator of the group who was so terrified (I think of ALL of us at the moment) that she couldn’t post in her own group! So, I reminded Zoey of the rule and deleted the majority of her other postings and kept the one that had the most comments on it (the others had no comments). I reminded her of this rule twice, at least, yesterday. And the admins and I are currently writing a document with said rules to be added to the group’s documents file so that all will know what they are when they enter the group.

As an admin, if someone joins this group that I just do not like personally, I will just make sure I apply the rules fairly and objectively. If I’m having a current argument (not to be confused with debate) with them, I ask another moderator to step in if possible, just to make sure it all stays fair and aboveboard. However, on this occasion the other moderators were afraid to speak up. So, I did. And that’s why Zoey left the group in protest. Once I had spoken up, another gained courage (mob mentality?) to speak up and remind Zoey this was a bully free zone and there were members there who felt they were being bullied. Granted, some felt Zoey was not being a bully. I’ll let YOU decide.

We admins were messaging about what the group rules should be and what I should include in that document when Zoey requested that she be allowed to rejoin the group. She had told them she wanted to message me but couldn’t. This is because I have my settings set so that only “friends” on my Facebook account can message me. Do you know how disconcerting it is to get a message from some random guy wanting to have “hot chat”? Ick. So I have set it that way. I can message other people who are not my friends, but they cannot initiate a message with me if they are not on my friends list. Since Zoey defriended me because she felt I was a spy for Yomama’s blog, she couldn’t message me anymore. I told the other admins, sounds like she wants to apologize. So, let her back in. We have to forgive others as we want to be forgiven. So, they approved her request to rejoin. I should have known better!

She did come in the group. She did say “sorry”; however, it didn’t stop there. It was “I’m sorry but” which is not the same as a true apology. It’s a passive-aggressive action to get a foot in the door to stir up more trouble and drama. I’m posting screen shots with permission from the group’s owners. The other screen shots come from public forums and such.  I’ll add my own thoughts as we go. It’s in multiple parts. And Yomama, I get it now! It isn’t so much a blog to make fun of Zoey and waste time but to warn others. I get it now.

Sadly, as I was writing this update, I went to obtain a screen shot or “snip” of the apology thread and it has vanished. No moderator deleted it so I must conclude that Zoey did before she left to prevent this very thing. That’s fine. On that thread, I did tell her that I was sharing screen shots on MY OWN BLOG—not spying for anyone else, thank you—and she was upset because I had blanked out others’ names and images but not hers (or mine either!). That is because they were not a party to the conversation (we were waving hi at each other for cripes sake) and had no bearing on the situation at hand. Their comments were completely irrelevant and quite frankly, it pissed me off that she started trying to throw other people under the bus! Her so-called friends! This post was about Zoey—not them. So why would I include their names/images associated with their FB accounts? Duh.

So, basically she came into the group and “apologized”. She said, “I’m sorry” and then continued to justify her behavior. Yomama’s blog has plenty of screen shots and I’m sure one of them has such an example as it is a classic maneuver for Zoey to do. She’s sorry but 1) she continues to do it and 2) she justifies the behavior she’s allegedly apologizing for. I want to point out now that if one is truly sorry for their behavior, they do not justify or say they were right for acting that way. No, they say they are sorry and maybe add that which CLARIFIES or EXPLAINS why they did what they did. They do not JUSTIFY the behavior and say they were RIGHT to behave that way if they are sorry for it. It’s mutually exclusive.

She also whined that “everybody” has been telling her to get help lately (in the form of therapy) and informed us all she is already seeing a therapist for talk therapy. What I would suggest is more than just talk therapy, something that includes cognitive behavioral elements. But that’s between her and her therapist. I did suggest to her that if everyone is STILL telling her to get help and she’s already getting help and HAS been getting help all this time, perhaps she needs a new therapist cause this one ain’t working. She made the comment that all these “get help” comments are bordering on harassment because it’s so much.

Ready for this? Not too much longer down thread Zoey then says, to me, “I don’t see anyone else complaining about my behavior.” *facepalm*

 

And included on this thread was another moderator telling her that her behavior was out of line and terrifying the third moderator.

 

But apparently I’m the only one telling her that her behavior is beyond the pale?

*shakes my head*

 

Also, too, she made the statement she had been friends with the third moderator longer than anyone else has. What was the point of that? I still haven’t figured it out. I mean, I can be friends with said person. And said person can be friends with Zoey. Why should she have to choose between the two of us? She doesn’t. She’s allowed to be friends with whomever she chooses. That’s HER choice. And no one should try to intimidate her into making those choices match up with what they desire. That’s… bullying!

I have come to the conclusion the problem is this: Everyone loves me and hates her at the moment? I think that is her perception, mind you, not necessarily the truth. You see, this group made me moderator/admin of the group after Zoey specifically asked to admin their group and was denied. I’m going to be completely honest here because I know of no other way to be. They didn’t want Zoey to “take over” their group as she has in other groups most recently. Zoey is an admin of many groups; some she has created herself and some others have made her admins of. That’s fine. Why does she HAVE to be an admin of another? So they told her they wanted it to be a partnership of just those two as the most diplomatic way of explaining it to Zoey without “criticizing” her. It was a true statement too, at the time.

After that, they realized as original admins of the group, it is possible FB would glitch up and remove them as admins and the group would become a free for all in who would be in control—much like how Zoey was able to “take over,” by force in a sense, of a peaceful autism group on FB. In that group, she asked to be admin and was denied. Then wham-o, she suddenly has the ability to make herself an admin and the actual creator of the group was no longer an admin. Still not quite sure what caused that and so the administrators/creators of THIS group was afraid it could happen to them. They wanted someone they could trust to turn control back over to them if FB happened to boot them out of being admins. The luck of having 3 admins seems to stop that from happening for whatever reasons. They know me, they trust me and so they made me admin. I would not ever take over control of someone’s group nor would I speak on behalf of them without their prior knowledge and consent. The same cannot be said of Zoey Roberts.

So, she got butt hurt. Then, all of a sudden, she starts spreading the rumor on FB that I’m a spy. I swear I had at least 20 to 40 messages in my inbox when I finally got online this weekend about her attempts at defaming me. Now, she did clarify to folks she did not have “proof” that I was, just a hunch. But she said she didn’t HAVE proof—not that it didn’t EXIST—and she said that she would GET the proof soon. Of course, she hasn’t yet because no such proof exists. Because I am not Yomama’s spy!

On this missing apology thread, she asked me how I knew her comment about bullies and spies was directed towards me and not someone else as it was GENERAL in nature. One, because I’m trained to recognize bullshit? Okay, Okay, mostly because people had messaged me already and informed me of what she was doing. I explained that to her. Again.

Then she stated it HAD to be one of her friends because some of these posts are coming off her wall. I tried AGAIN unsuccessfully to explain to her that one does not have to be a friend to get a screen shot of a posting on her wall because she does not have her wall set to private but to public. No one is doing anything illegal when they screen capture something that is public and on the internet. No one is doing anything illegal when publishing said screen captures when these are public comments in a public place online, even if it is someone’s personal profile page. If you don’t want someone to see it, use it, or republish it, copyright it or don’t put it up.

As for the ETHICS of that type of situation? Well, she *wants* to be a public figure. So, she is one. She has to take her lumps just like the rest of us. Sorry, chica. Those that comment on her postings are generally speaking NOT public figures but private citizens who get afforded more privacy than she does. She’s like a celebrity that complains of the paparazzi taking pictures when they’re out grocery shopping. There’s a price one pays for fame. Or infamy.

However, I want to get to the screen shots. I love ‘em! I joined a new group today that has been around for quite a while and it is a public group. It is not closed nor does anyone in there have an expectation of privacy. This group is the FB group of WrongPlanet.com. There are several members of that group that I have had run-ins with in the past that are also currently having run-ins with Zoey. This is funny, to me, on MULTIPLE levels. It’s not a ha-ha funny, either.

A discussion between Zoey and Elyse Bruce 

Now, Elyse Bruce is a public figure of some note herself. She also is the co-founder of Midnight In Chicago and regular readers (and friends of mine) will remember what has transpired over the past two years between myself and that ‘initiative’. This is not about that.  This thread came from someone asking about if someone had been bullied and how it affects them and that type of thing. Elyse made a nice reply to the post as an active member would. Then Zoey Roberts responded to the original post. She almost did as well as Elyse in her reply except for one thing. That everything past “I’ve been bullied and stalked to [sic]” was directed at Elyse. You see, at MIC’s blog, they have posted screen shots of Zoey and her … misbehavior… as well. It’s not just Yomama and it’s not just me. However, we all have a common purpose now: to warn others.

Elyse, not being a stupid woman, replies to Zoey knowing full well who Zoey is talking about. She very politely requested that Zoey not stalk her and respond in groups/posts that Elyse is in. I disagree with Elyse here somewhat: Zoey has every right to join a public group and it may not have been, initially, for the sole purpose of “stalking” Elyse. But I can certainly see why Elyse responded the way she did as it was obvious to me—an autistic—that Elyse was the person Zoey was originally referencing. However, since several people has been “airing her dirty laundry” lately, the last post by Zoey could be about any number of people.

Next screen shot, please!

Zoey published an additional two comments back-to-back after the last one from the previous screen shot. Again, not mentioning any names but it is clear who she is referencing—at least to me. One person in this thread informs Zoey that in another group there is 292 comments about Zoey and many of them are not in favor of Zoey. This is the group Zoey did a hostile takeover of. I’m a member and current admin of said group. The other admins of the group tried to keep that thread to a “warning” thread rather than a “Bash Zoey” thread at least and allowed the members there who felt harmed by Zoey and her behavior an outlet to vent. We respected their right to express themselves. Now, in that SAME thread this person mentions to Zoey, I defended Zoey quite a number of times by explaining but not justifying some of her behaviors. You see, I had thought if people could understand where Zoey was coming from, we could all band together and TEACH Zoey what’s wrong with what she’s been doing, why it’s causing harm and why it IS her problem if she’s going around causing said harm. Like the very parental type of people she claims she wishes we were. Aha! Therein lays the problem. She says she wishes we were like PARENTS. Well, when we correct our children, we expect them to 1) listen to us 2) respect that we have more experience in this area and know what we are talking about 3) correct their behavior so it doesn’t happen again to the best of their ability and 4) appreciate that we cared enough about them to bother with correcting (criticizing) them in the first place. Zoey doesn’t act that way, though. No, if you criticize her, you’re a bully trying to oppress her freedom of speech!

 

Next screen shot:

 

And here we have Zoey rewriting history. She adds another comment to say that she chose to walk away rather than get angry (has that EVER really happened?). No mention made of how she tried to take over the group from the creator. No mention of how she told said creator to go jump off a bridge and commit suicide. No mention of how any of that happened. No mention of how the reason she finally gave back control was because of her messages to and from me where we conversed about what she was doing and why it was the wrong way to go to prove she had “changed” from the way Yomama was portraying her! NONE of that was mentioned! Yes, we did derail the thread quite a bit with other topics. Autistic people tend to talk in tangents and may or may not get back to the original point given time.

 

Or at least this autistic does that. 😀

 

But in this case, that was mostly done on purpose—I think because none of us felt good about a Bash Zoey thread, no matter how much one might agree with the views expressed in it. We’re just not that kind of people.

And she talks about people mudslinging with these screen shots. Mind you, these are CURRENT, only DAYS and some cases HOURS old. This is not PAST behavior. This is CURRENT EVENTS.

Next screen shot please…

 

Now, this other person in the comments is a mutual friend of mine. I have blocked out her name as it really isn’t relevant. Her comment is the last one in the previous screen shot and Elyse asked for clarification, fearing this was perhaps a “Zoeyite” come to give support to Zoey. Zoey preemptively tells this person not to mention the blog by name, which rightfully upsets Elyse. Elyse had every right to ask her question. Even if she did not fear that it was HER blog that was about to be mentioned by name, she may have been genuinely curious about which blog this person was talking about. So, she asks that Zoey not address anything Elyse says in this group or thread, again. Zoey responds with “we want to keep this thread respectable guys.” Again, Elyse reminds Zoey that her own behavior is PART of the problem. Zoey continues to support our mutual friend with a dig at the end towards general “bullies.”

The one comment I want to highlight here is this: “I support u ___ and please don’t b afraid either” [sic]. I’ve blanked out said person’s name. To me? A person who has trouble catching on to social cues? I don’t know but to me that looks like a call for this said person to speak up MORE. As in, I’m here, I got your back, say what I want you to say so I don’t have to and have it used against me later. It’s as if, to me, she wants THIS PERSON to do her dirty work for her. I could be wrong. What do you think?

 

Now, moving back to the group I was made an administrator of and that made Zoey mad. While I do not have snips of that apology thread, she had made another post that I had allowed to stay. Here is the first part of that. (Ya know, this snipping and commenting could become addictive with me. I hope not!)

 

Now, the other person who initially posted to this is a kind-hearted mother of an autistic child that is a mutual friend of ours. I have a feeling, when she was posting her comments, she had not a clue of what had been transpiring “behind the scenes” so to speak. So, moving on.

Now, I was talking about the group that she had done a takeover of. They DID ban her from that group. Once the creator got control back—Zoey had left and the creator then banned Zoey from returning. At the time of this writing, she is the only person who is actually banned from returning to that group. When you tell the creator of a group to commit suicide, I think they have a right to ban you when you then get added back (or maybe she had never left/got kicked out) to the group and try and take it over.

We will soon see that she was not talking about the same group, but another one with a similar name, where apparently, she had some trouble. Who knew? But ya know, no one else is complaining about her behavior!

To show that this is all one continuous thread, when I did the snips this time, I included the previous ending comment of the last snip.

 

At the time, I had no clue who had created the second “peaceful” group she was talking about (and she spelled the person’s screen name wrong anyway). However, NOW that I DO recall which group she was talking about, I missed the drama of it all when it transpired because, at the time it happened, I was NOT a member of the group. I had left myself. I have since returned. I forget why I had left but I know I was upset with someone in there and so chose to leave.  Whatever the case, I was not a member of that group, at that time, that I KNOW of. I do not recall ANY time where Zoey was attacked in a thread “for absolutely no reason.” Therefore, it had to have occurred while I was not a member. If she’s not rewriting history, that is.

Note that there are multiple reminders not to flood the group. This is because while we were discussing this, she continued to make more posts in support of herself and her behavior. This is after she apologized for said behavior.

She forgot to “like” her comment about hating drama! I started liking my own comments to show it doesn’t matter and doesn’t prove a dang thing to like your own comments. Those who also liked my comments were the other moderators.

I still have no idea why she brought up the creators of the group. I still don’t “get” it. Maybe a reader can fill me in? But I do know it terrified them as they felt it was her labeling them as targets. I don’t blame them for feeling that way and I will support those best I can if they do become her target next. I really hope they don’t.

The other adult that posted is autistic herself. She has been bullied. She had come to this group to seek refuge and to discuss those types of issues. However, at the end of her comment she writes “that’s why I tell Zoey…” which makes me wonder if Zoey didn’t ask this person to “defend” her in this group. Then Zoey claims to hate drama. Yet, she is the one who created it THIS TIME by suggesting I am something I am not, doing it behind my back, without the courtesy of saying it DIRECTLY and EXPLICITLY to my face, knowing I have NEVER, EVER gotten angry with her any time during our conversations nor have I ever put her down. All I did was suggest she change her behavior if she doesn’t like what she sees in the screen shots. Oh, and became a moderator of a group she wanted to control.

Some more whining… 

 

Oh, let me clear this up for you Zoey! I wouldn’t want you to operate under any misunderstanding. It is not your OPINIONS that I have a problem with. It is not your OPINIONS that hurt my feelings. It was your BEHAVIOR that did it. And when I criticized you, it was to HELP you as a parent would help their child when they see their child making a mistake. It was not because you’re “vocal abt opinions” [sic] at all. As I told you on the thread you deleted, it is your opinions and sharing of them that I liked! I liked your postings of videos and articles and often shared them onto my own wall and in groups!  What I did not like was you starting an unfounded rumor because of a lack of logical thinking on your part. It was you causing drama in a drama-free, bully-free zone. It was your deciding to try and bully that group into making me NOT an admin and YOU an admin. THAT is what I had a problem with! Certainly not your opinions on autism as we agree about much on that score.

Don’t know what I mean by intimidation to get me removed? I submit THESE screen shots as proof.

And this one after she had come back to “apologize” for the above and other behavior, such as suggesting I was a spy.

 

No, Zoey, you don’t. But we don’t like to be controlled either. And that is exactly what the problem was: *I* wouldn’t let you bully your way into control of this group hence your “protest” of me as admin. I’m a bit concerned because the first person who posted in response to this was added to the group right after Zoey left the first time, and then asked to be my “pen pal” after friend requesting me. I’m not sure we’re in the same lane on this one.

When someone suggests that what you are doing is hurting them, it is not trying to control you. It may be judgmental, of the behavior, but not you. It is not trying to change “who you are” but trying to change how you express yourself so that it does no harm. You see, your right to express yourself extends to the tip of my nose, so to speak. You can do so as long as you do not harm others. This is why one cannot yell “fire” in a crowded theater, as it will harm others, if there is no fire even though we have free speech in my country. You can extend your arm as far out as you want to, so long as it doesn’t touch me. Then it becomes assault. That is the point you fail to understand time and time again and that is why we so often repeat ourselves.

It is NOT okay to go around hurting other people’s feeling, then saying “Oh that’s your problem you have feelings” and then in the next breath say “I have feelings too.” If you want others to respect your feelings, try offering respect in exchange! I have spent countless time trying to get you to understand that in direct and indirect ways. You say you TRY to be polite and respectful and at the same time accuse me of something *I* tell you is not true nor do you have any basis for believing it. And about 30 or so other people tell you it isn’t true. Do you need a statement from Yomama like he/she had to make regarding Elyse Bruce??

Examples of apology by Zoey Roberts:

This is another example of a “not really sorry” moment ala Zoey Roberts. She has VALID reasons for saying what she says. And if you cannot understand her latter half, it is that she can’t help it if people take offense to her general opinions when it’s not about their personal issues, thank you. Well, Zoey, the problem is, it WAS about their personal issues!

                    

She posted this in a group, I think, and someone responded. You might have seen several mentions of her “9/11” opinions. She started out with the political side of this and how her PERSONAL RIGHTS have been infringed upon by the Patriot Act following the events of 9/11. Now, I won’t get into MY views on this subject, but suffice to say, if she had kept it there, we wouldn’t be having this problem necessarily. As far as I know, she is a Canadian citizen. I do not know how the Patriot Act affects her as I thought that was an American only thing. I could be wrong! So, as I said, not going to debate that part.

However, she DID say (although I don’t have a capture of it) that those who are talking about 9/11 and getting upset should “move on” and “get over it” and so forth so that she can have her personal rights back. Again, I don’t know what rights she has lost as a result of 9/11 but there ya go. She, of course, cannot see how that can be insensitive and defends her right to express it. That’s fine, she does have a right to express it as far as I’m concerned. But why whine when other people express THEIR disapproval of her opinion? That’s what she did with those posts on Twitter! (The screen shot of that is labeled “some more whining” in this update.)

 

I really do wish I had the capture of the apology thread because I believe it was on that one where I pointed out to her that she has a set of rules for everyone else to abide, but a different set for herself when concerning the same things. Now this manner of thinking is a symptom of a lot of diagnoses. The majority who exhibit this symptom (everyone else has to obey these rules but ME) are bipolar—not Asperger’s. I am offering this as merely an observation, not a judgment and certainly not a diagnosis of Zoey Roberts. I DO happen to know from reading various studies that autism and bipolar can be often comorbid. For my eldest son, he has both, too. He also used to think this way. He is now 13 and we’ve worked on that. He checks himself before passing judgment on others… he asks, Do *I* follow this rule/law? Why do I expect them to? And so on. I’m really proud of the progress he’s made in this area! He’s not there yet all the way and at times has trouble in this area, but he’s progressed further than Zoey has. It’s a shame no one caught on to it sooner to help her sooner so it wouldn’t be this big of a problem.

And it is this thinking, this misconception, which is at the heart of all her problems online. Yes, it can be harder to socialize for some online than it is face-to-face. For me, personally, I do a lot better. Because we’re on a more even field where there isn’t any body language to interpret and so on. So all those online communicating are Just. Like. Me. and have to rely solely on what someone SAYS to understand what they mean. Let’s look at her most recent problems to understand why this is the cause of all her problems.

She calls someone a bully if they call her names. She can call them bitches and tell them to commit suicide, because she’s having an “off day” or “negative day.” But she does not afford the others the same chance to just have an “off day.” They don’t have to have autism in order to have an “off” day and do something they wish they hadn’t. But she doesn’t excuse their behavior, only hers.

She complains that some bloggers have taken to “naming names” and yet she has posted HUNDREDS of people’s name that should be reported, or banned, or removed from something or other. We’re not even calling for her removal! We’re just talking about her! She calls it illegal! But yet, she will name names when it suits her just fine which isn’t illegal, of course, for ZOEY to do.

She says she does not want to be controlled. And yet, she very much wants to control all that is in her realm and all those who are her friends. But when said friends try to HELP her understand something, she calls them controlling. When she does it, it’s because she only wanted to be helpful and was rejected!

When she expresses opinions that others find objectionable, she cries foul that they would voice their objections. Yet, when she finds something objectionable, she feels free to say so.

 

You see the pattern? I do. I hope one day, she does too!

One final screen shot. Sorry it’s taken me so long to post this but it was requested by Midnight In Chicago some time ago and it has taken some time to post it. I don’t know how to post pics to a comment field on a blog, so this will have to suffice. I had a delay in posting it because at the time THIS thing was going on (about Zoey Roberts believing Elyse Bruce was the same person as YoMama) I was going through some personal issues and had to relocate—lots of drama and stuff. But I found it!

You see, Zoey had mentioned Yomama and linked to the blog Yomama writes repeatedly on her wall and requesting info on WHO Yomama might just be. At the time, I commented that the person might be found out by going to the MIC blog, where last year(?) someone by the “same name” had commented there and EB or someone at MIC, had outted that person as a “fake” name. At the time I said that to Zoey, I let her know THEN that I COULD be mistaken as my memory from that long ago could be faulty. I was suggesting that, to me, I could see why she thought the connection was there IF the same person was making comment on the MIC blog.

Here is Zoey again asking who it is, about a day or so later (?), and I correct myself because I could not find the original post. She floods her own wall (which is her right to do of course) and so to try and find “older posts” was just too hard when I realized my mistake. So, I posted my correction to her on this post instead.

 

Now, I have had this screen shot for some time, but as I said, it’s taken me awhile to share it because I have had some issues going on that took precedence. However, from past experience with Elyse Bruce and her group, I knew it would be an issue and so made sure to “snip” it. However, I was new to that snipping thing (and really, still am!) so I’m experimenting now with the best way to do them. So, this was my first one really and so, there’s nothing around it to give it context. Sorry about that! I didn’t realize how that “Snipping Tool” in Windows really worked at the time. And since it’s been a REALLY long time ago now, I doubt I could find it on her wall again. But, I hope this suffices. If not, don’t know what to say!

 

I just wish EVERYONE could feel free to post under their own names. Sure, I recognize the need for some to remain anonymous and all but it sure would make things less complicated. And c’mon, seeing the name YoVillian a few times last year and “Yomama” this year, can anyone really blame someone with a traumatic brain injury for getting it confused?

9/14/2011: I had some trouble with accessing internet to post this sooner. As I was going to The Rants of Zoey (Yomama’s blog), to obtain the link, Blogger says the blog is no longer there.

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7 Responses to “Zoey Roberts: Continued…”


  1. September 14, 2011 at 7:45 pm

    I’m goint to start with a critique of the post itself first: You were *way* too clip happy! I know you wanted to show examples — but the full text of a back and forth conversation is a tad tedious to go through. I also know that “cherry picking” part of a conversation is also subject to criticism, so I don’t fault you so much for showing the complete conversation. My comment is more that a lot of those conversations showed the *same* problem in a different way, and might have just been mentioned rather than displayed.

    I think everyone has a tendency to do the “I’m sorry but…” form of apology. It is in our nature to explain *why* we said what we did. Now a LOT of people ARE really sorry, and they are trying to explain rather than excuse. But it is hard to tell the difference. I have been called out on that very thing, and you know that well because YOU have brought it to my attention a few times! So what I **try** to do now is say “I am sorry for what I said. No excuses, I was wrong.”

    Then, once that apology is accepted (if it is, and generally it IS accepted because it is genuine), I can then explain the *reason* it was said — “This happened, then that was said, and then I said that to you, and it wasn’t your fault but this other stress that caused me to snap at you. It was still wrong, and I AM sorry.”

    I truly think that approach is NOT trying to ‘justify’ the offence, but to explain where it came from, the cause itself.

    I think another phoney apology starts “I’m sorry if what I said offended anyone…” To me, that seems to put the ‘blame’ of being offended on the one offended. You’re not sorry for what you said — just to those who took offense. It would be more accurate to say “I stand by what I said, although I know it offended some people.” The words “I’m sorry” aren’t real. You might feel sad or upset that you hurt someone, but you’re not sorry that you said what you did.

    Changing topics. Why do people expect others not to comment on THEIR comments? If you’re in a comment thread, and give your own opinion — other people are NOT restricted from referring to YOUR comment in their comment. They are responding to what you said, and have not only a right, but a duty in a way, to mention the source.

    Depending on how it is phrased, it is NOT necessarily an attack on you even if you are named. “I think Jerry is wrong because of fact A and fact B” would not be an attack on me. “Jerry is an idiot” WOULD be. The differnce here is obvious, but it is not always that clear. A more subtle form of attack is “Thinking such and such is stupid” is a personal attack, “Thinking such and such is wrong” is not. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and others have a right to debate the ISSUE you raise.

    One final comment, and this is probably closest to the gist of the post: Everyone should have a right to point out bad *behavior* when it affects the group dynamic. When someone terrorizes or bullies to such an extent that others become afraid to speak up, then it is the duty of the moderator to sanction that person. The process shoud be a private action first — private contact via message or email. If that fails, then a public statement, ideally without mentioning names, should be made: “Everyone, please remember that the rules to this group are…”. When that fails, exclusion is justified.

    OK, you say. What if I’m not a moderator? Well, you can mention it politely in a post: “Look, Jerry, I don’t mind that you disagree with me, but please don’t attack me personally.” What you should not do, however, is try to censor anyone else — “Jerry, don’t respond to my comments”. If you don’t want a response, then DON’T COMMENT. If you don’t LIKE someone — ignore them, don’t attack them. When you do, you wind up trading insults and attacks, and *everyone* in the group suffers.

    Remember, when you apply rules to others, make sure you follow them yourself. If you don’t, then you give them ‘permission’, in a way, to respond accordingly to you.

    You know, I think I need to post some stuff on my OWN blog. I’m getting entirely too verbose!!

    Good post, honey.

    JerryStephen™

    • September 22, 2011 at 5:31 am

      Thank you, Dear!! I’ve learned quite a bit there. And I thought I said some of the same things you did–just differently.

      I don’t mind anyone EXPLAINING their behavior. After all, what if I misinterpreted it? If they can explain and I then gain an understanding, there may be no need to apologize after all, too. But that’s a whole other thing 😉

  2. September 14, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    One thing I left out of my previous comment: If you’re having trouble with someone in a group and you are NOT one of the administrators of the group, then try PRIVATELY contacting one or more of them. Don’t *demand* that they censor someone else, but *ask* that they review the situation and monitor closely what is going on.

    They might tell you that you’re wrong. If so, accept it. “I don’t like Jerry, and he keeps commenting on everything I post! Stop him!” The response should be “Well, Jerry has a right to respond, and I don’t see anything he said as a personal attack, so you just have to ignore it.”

    OK, NOW I’ll be quiet…

    JerryStephen™

  3. 4 Jenna
    September 24, 2011 at 4:06 am

    The issue I’m having here is the fact that Elyse jumped to conclusions and automatically responded with “don’t stalk me”. I never saw Zoey mention any names and with as big as the internet is there is no definite of who she was actually referring to. If Elyse has this big of an issue, why does she continue to allow herself to see Zoey’s comments, amazingly enough, there is a “block” feature on facebook. I can see that there are a lot of misunderstandings here and many conclusions that were jumped to. I honestly don’t believe there is a way to take side on any of this, everyone has an opinion and has a right to state that opinion as long as it is not doing harm to others. Slander, defaming, harassment is going to continue until someone steps up and puts a stop to it. This stop does not include whining and complaining, it does include blocking and shutting up about it. So many things can go wrong with online communication because no one knows exactly *how* something is being said. However, the fact still remains that if there are any issues that a person does not feel can be resolved; block and move on. We’re all working on a better future here, not trying to tear other people down.

    I give you my permission to screenshot this and spread it around if you wish.

    • September 26, 2011 at 5:48 am

      Jenna,

      It must’ve been because I’ve seen Zoey do this to my own posts/threads that I did not believe it was that far of a leap for Elyse to make in this case. I agree, however, the best way forward is to ignore, completely, that which would provoke ordinarily. To the point of not even acknowledging the comment is even there attempting to provoke.

      I said on a thread earlier today that it might be hard for us autistics to do this because it’s like lying by omission. Pretending a person isn’t there, or block them and everyone ELSE responding to them and still pretending they aren’t there, is not the same as the person not actually being there, is it? But with practice, it can be done and it should be done. Then no one has fuel for the fire, on either side.

      Zoey was a friend at one time and I’m certainly not going to air anything that was said to me by her privately during that time of friendship, but I did share these publicly made comments in the hopes that she would see her behavior the way others are seeing them. And if more and more people are telling you it’s a problem, it’s more likely that it IS a problem and not just grounds for someone you dislike or who dislikes you to bitch about. I don’t 100% agree or 100% disagree with ANYONE (but myself!) and so there are going to be times when I’ll agree with someone I dislike or disagree with them… but just because I see something now in Zoey’s behavior that I feel she should address before she loses ALL her friends, doesn’t mean I’m some big bad mean bully. I’m not going to be posting any more blog posts about her or her behavior–I think my point was made here.

      But sometimes, because someone WAS a friend, you feel the need to speak up, and when they don’t listen, you speak LOUDER. Which is why I took it public. That and she defriended me on FB, I felt she didn’t want messages from me directly then but, having been a friend of hers, I felt I actually owed it to HER to speak up TO her about these types of actions. . But these posts aren’t meant to harass, bully, or otherwise intimidate Zoey Roberts or any of her friends… some of whom are still mutual friends with me. Which is why I won’t be screenshotting and spreading around ANYONE’s comments here… 🙂

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